The following site suggests that contrary to popular belief Hitler was not a vegetarian at all but only occasionally went on a vegetarian diet to "to cure himself of excessive sweatiness and flatulence". Mintguy
- http://www.vegsource.com/berry/hitler.html
Mkweise: You're setting a precedent by putting see List of notable vegetarians on all the pages of people on that list. I have 2 objections.
- Does this now mean that we have to put see list of (Hindu, Christian, German, African-American, left-handed people, architects etc..) on all articles?
- The see also: is for lists of related articles, the word Vegetarian is not listed once on the Origen page for example Mintguy
- Perhaps this should be discussed on one of the Wikipedia pages in order for a consenus to be established. Meanwhile I won't do any more cross-referencing like this.
- Re (1): Wouldn't say have to, but IMO a summary of cross-references is potentially useful enough to justify taking up a line or two at the very bottom of an article.
- Re (2): If my (admittedly lazy) pasting of that line added new information to the Origen article, isn't that all the more reason to add it? Mkweise 01:59 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)
---
I have actually researched this topic well. The Plato claim lacks evidence, and considering that the vast majority of people are not vegetarians, lack of strong evidence means most likely a meat eater. Benjamin Franklin was only a vegetarian temporarily (he died a meat eater). Albert Einstein became a vegetarian only at the very end of his life. Both of them remain in the article. Rousseau and Smith may have a spoken favorably about vegetarianism (I am especially doubtful about Smith - where is the quote from?), but this is significantly different from actually becoming a vegetarian.
Hitler: Hitler has been added to the list. This (unlike vegsource) a objective site, it is not a pro-vegetarian site. Hitler was influenced into vegetarianism by the example of Wagner (whom he greatly admired). The death of his niece Geli Raubel may also have been an influence. Hitler had a very fatty diet and a sweet tooth, yet he remained in good (excellent) health until he was blown up in 1944, so dieting or health was not his reason. Hitler and the NSDAP was also against vivisection, but this was never put into German law. h7asan
- Can you cite a source for this? All the stuff I've seen (snopes.com, for example) says that Hitler became a vegetarian late in life for gastric reaons. The article you're saying is pro-vegetarian -- which it is -- has cited sources, at least. -- ESP
- As the passage you deleted explains, Hitler called himself a vegetarian, but wasn't according to any common definition—though he very well may have honestly tried to observe an actual vegetarian diet. Mkweise 01:36 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hitler was a vegetarian
Here's a link to a new website that provides an unbiased examination of Hitler's vegetarianism:
http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian
The site contains many strong vegetarian remarks made by Hitler himself, in the 1940's. It also has a section which gives solid answers to all the typical arguments made by vegetarians who deny Hitler's vegetarianism. Finally, it includes the testimony of the woman who was Hitler's personal secretary from December 1942 until Hitler's suicide in April 1945. The site leaves no doubt that Hitler deserves to be included on any comprehensive list of notable vegetarians.
- Actually this is a myth. Reputable scholars have studied this issue and they have concluded that while Hitler did abstain from meat for months at at time, he was never a vegetarian, nor did he ever give up the sausages that he loved to eat. ==Viriditas 10:06, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why Deny Hitler's Vegetarianism?
It really is annoying to see advocates of vegetarianism attempt to distort the well-attested historical record of Hitler's vegetarianism in some sort of misguided effort to spare themselves the ordure of association with the man. The blunt truth is that the man really was a vegetarian - his closest acolyte Albert Speer and his personal secretary Traudl Junge, both of whom regularly had meals with him over many years, both testified to this in writing, as did both of his cooks, Constanze Manziarly and Marlene von Exner. There really is no point in attempting to deny something that can be so easily ascertained just by doing a little legwork in a decent library. It isn't as if there is a shortage of Hitler biographies out there, is it?
Assertions by self-interested advocates of vegetarianism about Hitler's supposed penchant for sausages or pig's knuckles ought to be discounted as worthless in so far as they aren't supported by evidence in the form of the recorded testimony of witnesses who were on the scene. Just because some vegetarian said such and such on a radio show doesn't mean the work of actual historical researchers can be breezily set aside.
Being Myself a Vegetarian,i also dont see the point of denying Hitler´s Vegetarianism.. The man was in fact a vegetarian! so what? that doesnt makes vegetarians bad people! the same way that Mahatma Gandhi being a Vegetarian doesnt makes vegetarians good people and lisa simpson doesnt make vegetarians cartoons! ;) - --Cyprus2k1 13:33, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Why was belief category reversed?
In my oppinion Vegetarianism does fall into the category of Belief Systems. Or am i wrong?
- is eating meat a belief system?... - --Cyprus2k1 11:26, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Absolutely, if you do that as a statement. I mean if you just grew up as a vegetarian/vegan or as a meateater then it wouldn't be. But hunter's belief that drinking blood of an animal you kill gives you the strength of that animal can be a belief system. Βeta_Μ (Talk) (Ë-Mail)
- i see your point. saying that one´s vegetarianism is a belief system because he/she beliefs it to be the right makes sense. but saying that one´s vegetarianism is a belief system because he/she simply doesnt like meat , doesnt makes much sense (include the category or not? dunno, depends on the point of view/context i guess..) - --Cyprus2k1 12:39, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I guess it all depends on what definition of vegetarianism we chose... Is there any precedents like that on Wiki... i'm trying to think of an anology when one thing could be defined as either a lifestyle or as a belief... i'd be interested in how it was resolved then... Βeta_Μ (Talk) (Ë-Mail)
- How's this: according to the Wikipedia article's definition (and my own understanding), vegetarianism is a "dietary practice", and as such, is not itself a belief system, but may be a consequence of a belief system. Another example: someone with a shaved head may do it because of his belief system, or he may just like having a shaved head. (And there are separate articles for head shaving and skinhead.) I consider vegetarianism-the-dietary-practice and vegetarianism-the-belief-system to be completely separate (in the same way that I don't consider Michael Jordan to be a Neo-Nazi skinhead). Does that help at all?
Hitler was not a vegetarian
According to biographer Robert Payne, Hitler's vegetarianism was propaganda invented by Joseph Goebbels to make Hitler look like an enlightened ascetic:
- Hitler's asceticism played an important part in the image he projected over Germany. According to the widely believed legend, he neither smoked nor drank, nor did he eat meat or have anything to do with women. Only the first was true. He drank beer and diluted <A TITLE="Click for more information about wine frequently, had a special fondness for Bavarian sausages and kept a mistress, Eva Braun, who lived with him quietly in the Berghof. There had been other discreet affairs with women. His asceticism was fiction invented by Goebbels to emphasize his total dedication, his self-control, the distance that separated him from other men. By this outward show of asceticism, he could claim that he was dedicated to the service of his people.
In fact, he was remarkably self-indulgent and possessed none of the instincts of the ascetic. His cook, an enormously fat man named Willy Kanneneberg, produced exquisite meals and acted as court jester. Although Hitler had no fondness for meat except in the form of sausages, and never ate fish, he enjoyed caviar. He was a connoisseur of sweets, crystallized fruit and cream cakes, which he consumed in astonishing quantities. He drank tea and coffee drowned in cream and sugar. No dictator ever had a sweeter tooth. [1] (Robert Payne, The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler(New York: Praeger, 1973), pp. 346-7)
And then there's the New York Times article from 1937:
- It is well known that Hitler is a vegetarian and does not drink or smoke. His lunch and dinner consist, therefore, for the most part of soup, eggs, vegetables and mineral water, although he occasionally relishes a slice of ham and relieves the tediousness of his diet with such delicacies as caviar... [2]
Dr. Kalechofsky: ...Hitler's diet, which always included some form of meat, whether ham, sausages or liver dumplings.[3]
Also, see this article by Bee Wilson in the New Statesman.
There is far more evidence against Hitler being a vegetarian than there is in favor of such a notion. --Viriditas 10:40, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It seems that hitler's motivations for having a vegetarian diet came solely from the fact that eating everything else caused him physical pain. The real question is, does mearly not eating meat make one a vegetarian, or does prefering vegetables make one a vegetarian? It is documented that hitler enjoyed eating meat, therefor it is my opinion that hitler is in fact not a 'vegetarian,' but mearly someone who is eating vegetables for health reasons. If this was a "list of people who had a vegetarian diet," hitler would be included. Paulr 15:56, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Cleaning up this list
I doubt that many of the people on this list belong here, as they really don't qualify as vegetarians. --Viriditas 10:46, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC).
Yerrux: I think this list of famous vegetarians should be expanded. One source could be http://www.mundovegetariano.com/MVdoc/MVdoc.php3?seccion=/famosos . Although this is a pro-animal website, it also mentions celebrities who are/were mistakenly thought to be vegetarian (like Buddha or Madonna).
Mkweise objects to a Wikipedia's list of famous vegetarians, because this would set a precedent by which we should establish a list of famous people for every group. I disagree, because being vegetarian means belonging to a quite small minority, and you can't compare compiling a list of famous vegetarians to a directory of celebrity Christians. Lists of famous left-handed people, Jews from countries other than Israel, Christians from non-Christian countries (like China or Jordania)would be interesting, especially for people who also belong to those minorities.
Adolf Hitler - In Dispute
I believe the only logical thing to do with Adolf Hitler's name is to list him under a separate section of people whose alleged vegetarianism is in dispute. Here is the reason:
Bias of the counterarguments
The arguments in favor of adding Hitler claim that since most of the counterarguments come from a biased source (vegsource), that they should not be considered. Just because vegsource is a pro-vegetarian website does not automatically mean everything it claims is false. If they present arguments and document sources then their claims need to be considered, even if they are a pro-vegetarian site. In fact, I believe it should be expected that the arguments against Hitler being a vegetarian should come from a pro-vegetarian website, because they are the ones who have a reason addressing the issue. People and organizations that have no interest in vegetarianism are of course not going to be interested examining evidence for or against Hitler being a vegetarian, so they are not going to address them.
- In any case, the primary sources for the counterarguments have nothing to do with vegsource.com nor any pro-vegetarians. Just because vegsources uses them has no bearing on the sources themselves. I suspect that the original argument against these sources is based on guilt by association. --Viriditas 04:53, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Experts can be wrong in their field
Just because Joachim Fest and Ian Kershaw claim Hitler was a vegetarian doesn't mean they are right. It is possible for experts in a field, even the majority of experts, to be wrong. Robert Payne is also a biographer of Adolf Hitler and claims Hitler was not a vegetarian.
Websites can be incorrect
As for the website http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/, how do we know it is accurate or unbiased? The website's claim that Robert Payne's argument against Hitler being a vegetarian was "speculative" is simply the opinion of that webmaster. How do we know the "Hitler's final witness" article linked to from that page is accurate? The point about Hitler's cook sneaking meat into his food does sound made up. Some of the arguments against Hitler being a vegetarian claim Hitler pretended to be a vegetarian. If that were the case, then it would make sense for Hitler to pretend to be a vegetarian (and pretend to be angry at his cook) for Traudl Judge.
It is possible to be baised against vegetarianism
People can be biased against vegetarianism, and Hitler's alleged vegetarianism is widely used as a fallacious guilt by association argument against vegetarians (I might as well specify here, that if people were to argue in favor of vegetarianism on the basis that Einstein, da Vinci, and Ghandi were vegetarians, that would be a fallacious appeal to authority argument). The fact that Hitler being a vegetarian is used as an argument to discredit vegetarianism incidates clear bias against vegetarianism.
Hitler is regularly claimed as a member of groups he is not
I've seen Hitler falsely attributed to many "famous people" lists he does not belong to, simply as an attempt to discredit that group (in particular, this seems to happen on groups Einstein is a claimed member of). I believe we would be seeing Hitler on "famous vegetarians" lists regardless of the circumstances.
What is the point of Wikipedia?
The point of Wikipedia is not to solve a controversial issue and determine which side is right. The purpose is to present information with a neutral point of view. However, what has been done on this list is to assume the arguments in favor of Hitler being a vegetarian are correct, which is not neutral. Some people might feel the evidence is overwhelming on one side of the issue, but there are also people who feel the same way on the other side of the issue. On Wikipedia both sides of the issue need to be addressed, regardless of how strongly people feel about it. Therefore, I believe the only rational thing to do is list Hilter as being "in dispute".
Q0 22:56, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Fictional Characters
I see Lisa Simpson has been added to the list. I don't think there is a problem with adding list of fictional vegetarians, but I don't think fictional and actual vegetarians should be mixed, so I think there should be a new section for fictional characters. Q0 22:56, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
List of Vegans
I noticed Alicia Silverstone has been recently added. Silverstone is also listed on the list of vegans. Is it the intention to list vegans on both the list of vegans and list of vegetarians? Q0 19:53, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- No. This has happened several times, possibly by the same user. I'll move it, if need be. Can anyone confirm that she's a vegan? --Viriditas 20:32, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- According to [4] and [5] she is vegan. Q0 21:08, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Moved. --Viriditas 22:50, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Carl Lewis
I noticed Carl Lewis was added to the list. From what I understand, Carl Lewis is a vegan only while in training. It is probably still noteworthy, but perhaps a brief explanation should be included in parenthesis. Also, if he is vegan, he probably belongs on the list of vegans not list of vegetarians. Q0 13:10, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Albert Einstein
According to http://www.ivu.org/history/northam20a/einstein.html Einstein wrote a letter to Vegetarian Watch-Tower in 1930, 33 years before becoming a vegetarian himself. So even though he was probably only a vegetarian for the last 12-18 months of his life, he appears to have been supportive of vegetarianism for much longer. Q0 13:10, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Combine with list of Vegans?
--I think we should combine this page with the page on notable vegans, while keeping them listed separately within the page. Certainly there is a good deal of variation and overlap within these people's beliefs/practices, and most people would probably be interested in seeing both lists simultaneosuly. --Jleon 15:22, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to agree, though I'd like to see a little more debate on this idea first. My initial reaction is that if, for instance, articles existed for list_of_people, list_of_famous_people, list_of_famous_doctors, and list_of_famous_doctors_of_the_twentyfirst_century, a famous doctor living in the 21st century belongs in all of the aforementioned lists; just because one fits a more specific category doesn't mean he or she ought be excluded from the more general category. Elvis was a musician, a rock musician, and a rockabilly musician...vegans are also vegetarians. That's my 2 cents. Jxn 00:53, 2005 Apr 5 (UTC)
Michael Jackson
Removed. Definitely not a vegetarian now - loves the KFC. The only evidence he ever was is from MJ himself, e.g. in his autobiography Moonwalk (http://www.mjshouse.com/download/moonwalk_book.pdf), but MJ is completely unreliable on the subject of his personal life.
